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You Be The Judge: Did Paul Harris hold the heel hook too long at WSOF 9?

You Be The Judge: Did Paul Harris hold the heel hook too long at WSOF 9?

In lieu of what just went down at World Series of Fighting 9, we're going to start a new feature on MiddleEasy titled 'You Be The Judge.'

Essentially we're going to go over a highly controversial moment that just happened in the MMA world and we're going to ask you what we should think about it since we're simply devoid of developing our own opinions.

The debut of 'You Be The Judge' is here, and we really want to see if Paul Harris held the heel hook too long at WSOF 9 against Steve Carl. Oh, and apparently there was a fighter named Rousimar Palhares that existed a few years ago, but the rumor is some guy named 'Paul Harris' actually consumed Palhares' body in one vicious gulp. Props to Zprophet for the .gif.

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Comments   

 
-13 # SnakeJake 2014-03-29 22:43
He did hold it a little long after the tap, but he let go when the ref told him to, so no controversy there.

Still... you can tell he tries to do damage instead of just forcing a tap, so he's still an @$$hole.
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-7 # AuntieRazor 2014-03-29 22:47
The ref did more than tell him. He had to give a couple quick tugs on his arm to set the leg free. ...and yeah....he's still an asshole, and if I were a fighter's manager, I'd convince my client to not fight him.
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+11 # AFrontKicktotheFace 2014-03-29 22:58
This was close enough but I wouldnt say held on too long. Wanna see a sub held on for too long with no repercussions, revert back to Hughes vs. Trigg. Matt Hughes is a true scumbag. Palhares is just a little slow in the uptake.
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-3 # MMAsshole 2014-03-31 07:36
I'd rather see Paul Harris hold on to a submission for an extra minute than to see him prematurely celebrate a victory

http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m551/therayrey/PalharesMiller134.gif
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+5 # Wandertonio Silva 2014-03-29 22:44
It was a wee bit long but not like last time.
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-3 # AuntieRazor 2014-03-29 22:45
He only let go because the ref gave two quick yanks at his arms to set the leg free. But, compared to his more obvious post-tap tweaks of the past, this one was an improvement.
He's gonna have quite a bit of success in WSOF, as it seems there are plenty of average fighters who will gladly give him their legs for some fucked up reason.
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+20 # cooljayhu 2014-03-29 22:49
Nope. He let go when the ref got there. Never let go of the submission until the ref stops the fight. The tap doesn't end it, the referee does.

It's kinda ridiculous that people are getting all over Palhares for this one. I know he has a shoddy track record at best but he let the hold go at the right time. He might have held it for a tenth of second too long but that's definitely within human reaction times, especially in the heat of the moment.

I just find it silly people don't get on guys for hitting opponents who are already knocked out. It's the literally same thing but when it's a TKO or KO people always say "fight until the ref stops you".

It's some hypocritical, double standard nonsense.
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+2 # AuntieRazor 2014-03-29 23:14
Of course people are going to be hyper-critical of him. We've been trained by him to think that way. Put the gun down.
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-9 # FreeLeeMurray 2014-03-29 22:59
Sooner or later the [censored]s are going to rule fuck this shit into unwatchable. (no offense to any gay people, I didn't mean you)
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+12 # AuntieRazor 2014-03-29 23:16
"They" won't be offended because nobody is gonna understand what the hell you just typed.
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0 # MarkKerrsDignity 2014-03-29 23:21
nope...he did what he was supposed to..move along, move along.
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-3 # Guysmalley 2014-03-29 23:58
With that move holding it a little long is like being a little pregnant. He is a liability for the UFC
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-3 # DJJohnDouglas 2014-03-30 00:14
ALL THE OVERWEIGHT MMA FANS THAT HAVE NEVER TRAINED A DAY IN THEIR LIVES GIVE ME A HELL YEAH!!!!!!
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-2 # AuntieRazor 2014-03-30 01:00
Taken straight out of the book of cliches. Plagiariser.
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+4 # trondiesel 2014-03-30 01:03
he held the hook for 2 seconds after the tap and almost immediately let it go when the ref touched him which is the right thing to do you never release before the ref physically stops you. i don't understand why everyone gets so upset about a fighter actually trying to win the fight considering almost everyone of you would cut an employees throat for a bonus check. this guy went out there and did his job if someone isn't willing to get a limb injured then they should tap out the second a person gets something locked in not wait until they apply enough force to the limb to destroy it in hope that he is just going to strain it lightly. its a fight and it is their job to win the fight which you should do to the best of your ability, half assing a submission hold is how you let your opponent get out of it anyone remember Mir Vs Nogueira? Nog didn't bother to tap until his arm was broken which is a perfect example of a fighter thinking they can take the submission and get out of it and that is the reason that the second you lock the hold in you go for the gusto if you have to tear the limb off then do so don't pussy foot around it we have all seen many fights were the person didn't go all out on the submission hold and ended up losing the hold all together.
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+5 # jt33 2014-03-30 03:04
ive been pretty critical of paul harris all the other times he held on to long.. this time i didnt even see any controversy and was actually impressed that he let ti go when he did(given he history). he held it until the ref got there.. he didnt keep cranking on it after or hold it for 10 additional seconds.. this man just won the title with a freaking heel hook and he cant catch a break.
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-2 # Mashane 2014-03-30 03:06
I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he didn't hold on too long...cause lets face it, he doesn't have a track record for this shit or anything so to assume he held on too long is insane, the ref barely had to jump on him and pull his hands apart.
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-4 # Tank 2014-03-30 03:20
Just because this cunt didn't hold the sub for as long as he usuall does doesn't mean he didn't hold it for too long.

The guy is criminal.
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+2 # Judo Mike 2014-03-30 07:09
It's long by most people's standards, but he doesn't seem to have gone full Paul Harris.
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-1 # Dannyml 2014-03-30 06:51
I didn't see anything controversial.
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-1 # NordKing 2014-03-30 07:30
Don't ignore that "Tree Trunk" is active in BJJ tourneys and has been for years, he knows when hes got this submission locked in but yet still can't release in time. Yes I understand this is a fight and not BJJ but he torqued again after the ref touched him. Anyone who says this is not a problem has A. Never been in an inverted heelhook before and B. Is ignorant to Toquihno's history. Why can't he figure this out, it seems so simple, you guys seem more concerned he is demonized then the fact he could derail someones career. "Well don't let him get the leg lock then" yeah well he shouldn't fuckin hold it while the ref shakes his arm either.
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-2 # bully4me 2014-03-30 08:42
Nordking, your reasoning is flawed. First off it doesn't matter if a person has been in a heel hook or not. That's like saying if you've never been KO'd that you can't appreciate it. Secondly Toquihno's history is irrelevant! If you are going to prejudice yourself before he even fights then you will always find fault with him. If you take his past out of the equation he did what he was suppose to do. One should go hard on a sub and you DON"T release until the ref stops the fight. Those two tugs you speak of happened within about a second and he did let go right away. If it had of been anyone else you most likely would have thought it a very good sub. Tree Stump was fighting a very very tough sub fighter in Carl and to go for that finish with any less zest would have just ended with him getting out of it. Look at the fight for what it is and nothing else. Yes, he has made mistakes in the past which are just plain wrong and disgusting. But I do believe that this guy is trying to turn the corner and is succeeding . Maybe we should look at him now and in the future and quit dwelling on his past, it's already cost him quite a bit, he's paid his dues, now it's time to let him move on.
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0 # BS 2014-03-30 08:51
Dude.. Harris obviously knew he had the submission on 100% and AS SOON as the other guy taps ONCE, the normal reflex for any fighter would be to look at the ref and wait for him to jump in... any other fighter would stop right when the ref makes the move to jump in, this fuckin Toquino lets him move from outside to in where the fighters are, and doesnt even release when he gets touched! he atually hold on for a full second + and the ref literally had to double tug his arms off... HE HELD ON TOO LONG! at least 2 seconds 2 long.... most ppl will say "DERPADERP 2 seconds is an instant its nothing" in a situation like this 2 second is a fuckin eternity
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0 # NordKing 2014-03-30 09:16
The fuck are you talking about if you haven't been K.O'd you CAN'T appreciate it. As for my "bias" against this guy remember those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it. It's the same thing as "michael jackson wasn't a child rapist" would you let him babysit your kids? "fuck that!"= "Toquihno's not a malicious fighter!" would you roll with him? "........."
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-3 # lycan_warlord 2014-03-30 07:48
was it long by paul harris standards? no. but here's what i think, two people at fault here. 1.) the ref. 2.) paul harris.

2.) obviously if you have someone in your signature submission, and you see them tapping, you should begin to have your brain realize you may be winning. then as soon as the ref appears in your peripherals, you let go, you win. paul harris has to figure out how to grasp that concept. otherwise, he'll just be "world" champ at WSOF.

1.) the ref i feel here is more to blame. either inexperience or not caring. i watched mazagatti, worst ref other than kate winslow, earlier on in the night, CROUCHING DOWN to look and see if a fighter was unconscious. he was maybe a foot and a half away from the fighters as they were rolling around. that was VERY impressive to me. shows he may actually be learning or giving a shit. this ref for paul harris' fight should have been just as close. the margin for error and injury with that heel hook is so much slimmer....why was the ref so fucking far away. as soon as paul harris touched carl's leg, that ref should have been nutt to butt with them. (if you've never heard the term "nutt to butt" before, i'm sorry you didn't serve) he should have been right there following closely because as soon as paul harris rolls at 3:53 that was game over. carl began to tap. it took almost two seconds for that ref to reach him. and yes paul harris required two arm tugs to let go.

once again that's why i say there are two at fault here. ultimately, with a better job done by the ref, i don't think this would even be an article, or a question if he held it to long or not.


don't think i hate paul harris. im actually quite jealous of his lats.

those are my 2 cents
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-3 # lycan_warlord 2014-03-30 07:48
and yes i know i did 2 then 1.
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+2 # AuntieRazor 2014-03-30 13:03
I'm just cracking up that everyone has finally caught on to using "Paul Harris" without second thought.
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+4 # bazza 2014-03-30 16:22
had it been any other fighter, this would not be news at all. Enough said.
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-1 # Ravelife 2014-03-30 18:30
Looked like a well timed stoppage and release. People are being hyper critical at this point. Let's not get crazy about this shit.
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+1 # BigWillTheChamp 2014-03-30 19:21
Here are the facts. Paul Harris got the submission. Carl tapped. No problem. The ref jumps in and waves. Still no problem because there is some amount of time where your brain needs to realize what is going on.
The ref tugs at Paul Harris' arm not once, but twice, to remove him from the hold. Problem. Big fucking problem. When the ref has to physically pull your arm out of a hold, TWICE, you held it too long. Plain and simple...
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+3 # AuntieRazor 2014-03-30 19:25
I agree with you 100%. Yeah he held on for a little bit after the tap...and I can understand that he should continue to hold it for a little bit after the tap until the ref gets in there. I completely understand that. But the fact that he wasn't even looking for the refs presence...and even when the ref did arrive, it took two tugs(from the ref) to break his grip. Yeah, it's not even close to extreme as his past fuck-ups, but it's still there and could use a little more improvement. I mean....it seems like all the other fighters got the memo, except for him. I do recognize he's improving somewhat, but he aint completely there yet. Strangely, others will disagree. They'll even deny the ref's two-tug separation!! The footage is there, but others wanna deny. Very strange.
I don't know what fight the other people watched, though.
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-4 # BigWillTheChamp 2014-03-30 19:49
I'm actually more ok with the hold from the last UFC fight than this one and thought dana over reacted. Especially after this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyMB5DhJ7Fw
The Carl fight is way worse than that ^
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-1 # TheMortalSinn 2014-03-30 20:51
i would be the same way im not going to stop untill the ref rips me off
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-4 # Alexx 2014-03-31 05:38
i dont think he did hold it too long. The ref stopped it and he let go.
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0 # guppy 2014-03-31 09:47
It looked like he held on after Steve Carl tapped and after the ref tapped. To me, it appeared he didn't let go until the ref pulled his arm off. It may have been a little late but as far as Paul Harris submissions go, it was about as early a release and you're gonna get. As long as they've got good refs during his fights (leg attacks) there probably won't be any problems. The dude is under a microscope and rightly so given his history. No real infraction here but I'd place money on a future over zealous sub.
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-1 # Rippie74 2014-03-31 15:28
I watched this fight Sat night. I believe this guy Steve Carl knew he was going to lose this fight.
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-1 # filiusgladi 2014-03-31 21:07
You will be making it a non contact sport with the media hype. Enough fools jumping on about anything in MMA. You cant do this or do that. If he holds on for a 1/4 second too much everyone is gonna go nuts! Fools!
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-1 # GrimsGrind 2014-04-04 06:53
For the record: What Dan Henderson did to Bisping was WAYYYYYY worse than any post-stoppage from Palhares... He could have gave Bisping Brain-Damage... But people overlook it because "It looked cool, and Bisping 'deserved' it"
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0 # AuntieRazor 2014-04-04 21:28
(sigh)
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